Atlantic Station

Interesting and insightful post.

The thing I couldn't help but continue thinking as I read it was how heartless the whole concept is. Personally, I wouldn't even consider living in one of these new ultra-planned out areas. There's just no life to them when everything is new and at perfect right angles, and dumbed down so as to make getting around as efficient as possible.

It seems as though the powers that be in these southern planned cities are more interested in efficiently getting their citizens into the nearest Starbucks rather than helping new, small local businesses have true neighborhoods with inhabitants that actually talk to each-other in the street and know the name of their grocer.

Sorry, but it just seems wrong.

Todd, have you read James Kunstler's The City In Mind? It has a chapter devoted to an excellent, if somewhat harsh, assessment of Atlantan urban planning, or lack thereof ("Does Edge City Have A Future?") .

Mixed-used development is the future, because when oil prices double in the next 10-20 years, driving to the Wal-Mart SuperCenter just isn't gonna be an option - you're going to have to live locally, to paraphrase a bit from the UK's League of Gentlemen...the near future may come to resemble 1915 with Wi-Fi more than the Jetsons...

PS - it's "cul-de-sac." Literally, "bag end," although in Quebecois slang it's more commonly "ass end." :)

I lived in Atlanta in the mid 90's and the idea of leveling downtown and starting over was exactly what I thought the city needed to do. Though the hodgepodge of spaces occasionally leads to interesting or even charming juxtapositions like ansley park/midtown, Atlantans are mostly left with endless stripmalls and abandoned industrial facilities, wiht the occasional skyscraper thrown in for good measure. Five years of living in Chicago has only reinforced my love of grid-based cities.

Though from what I've seen the plans for Atlantic Station aren't architecturally interesting, I think that the urban planning aspect of it is great. I lived a few blocks from the Atlantic Steel site, so it's nice to see that the city is finally doing something right for a change. From what I've read lately, Atlanta seems to have a renewed interest in it's downtown which is great, and it almost makes me miss living there, which I never thought could happen when I first left.

Nat, you hit the nail on the head. After moving to Chicago in 1999 I have found it increasingly more difficult to travel outside of the "grid". Spend just a little time here and you begin to appreciate how useful a numbered, grid system is to communication and travel.
Patrick, if given enough area and time, neighborhoods can and do pop up in the city without compromising the structure. I agree that for Atlantians they are getting an extreme makeover with Atlantic Station, but to me it would seem foolish to redevelop the land the old fashioned way. If Atlanta wants to compete with the big boys (NYC, Chicago, and a few others) then a urban renewal on a grid system is the only way to go.

Now, if folks in Atlanta could only get the public transportation system right... but I won't get started on that rant.

"Will issues erupt between the homeowners and retailers, both of whom use the space for conflicting reasons?" -- Jane Jacobs would argue that this conflict is what makes cities thrive. Check out The Death and Life of Great American Cities (Hope that link works; I'm never certain with Amazon these days). This "planned city" looks to me more like a condo complex with a mall than a mixed-zoning city, though.

See, I strongly disagree with your comments Patrick. For one, aren't we should be the least bit glad that there is some PLANNING to this development? Shit dude, every old neighborhood or building was brand new at one time.

Besides, it falls on the PEOPLE to make the neighborhood. Believe it or not, people really do know people's names in places like Starbucks and Einstein bagels... hard to believe but true.

For the record, IKEA is going to drive the outer rim people in en mass.

The entire time I was reading this I was waiting for the inevitable "if giant website X were to start with a clean slate..." I can't say I'm disappointed the grand analogy didn't play out. Certainly would have been apt though.

I saw James Kunstler speak in Savannah, one of the most well laid out cities in existance. Most of the talk was ripping on Atlanta, and it was better than a David Cross show. If the practices of New Urbanism he spoke about were taken into account with the Atlantic Station development, I think Patrick would find in the end that through the proper and liberal creation of public spaces this type of environment can become a healthy and happy community. I highly recommend his books.

One exciting thing in his discussion was the transformation of a derelect shopping mall (maybe in chicago?) and it's surrounding parking lot into a mixed use environment. It gave hope that someday communities can fix all the problems they have made for themselves through the creation of these purely commercial environments.

To all who have not been to Atlanta: You will never understand what a God send it is to "mow down and start over". This place needs it bad baby.

As I was reading your post, I couldn't help but reflect on how the mostly white middle class fled to the suburbs to flee urban blight and minority inroads and now we all clamor to tear down the inner cities and redevelop them to make them "habitable" again.

In other words, what we all ran away from, we now covet and remake and call it progress.

My hope is that this national trend by developers and cities to remake their downtowns and inner cities into suburbanite friendly meccas befits the current neighborhood dewellers and has a true socioeconomic impact for the community - not just the fly by night developers and city managers.

J

Of ocurse, in Boston they decided to stomach the contruction and are putting the main city inroads underground now. The BIg Dig won't be done for several years yet, and its already ac ouple of billion dollars over budget and has increaded an already healthy organized crime racket, but all that urban green space will be worth it.

And here in Nashville,= they are creting a giant parking garage under what will be a new public square, a return to the city plan from 1850 or so.

I think that major urban rehashes have to address the parking and road situation before all else, and they need to encourage public transport as they do it.

I'd love to see it pan out, but I'm skeptical. I've yet to hear of one that accurately feels like 50's New York (for example), and I'm always struck by how inorganic and micromanaged they are. Sure they don't cater to the auto like the suburbs, but the zeal against the car seems a lot like our previous zeal for the car. I fear that they will be our moden Levittowns and just as soulless. I hope I'm wrong and it doesn't turn out to be a waste of time and energy, but I haven't been to one that doesn't feel artificial.

"Atlantic Station is a shining example of what could happen if urban upheaval were feasible, and architects were allowed to redesign a city with a singular, sweeping vision for the modern age."

God save us from the kind of architect-as-beneficient-genius attitude behind this.

No great city on Earth is great because a "sweeping modern vision" defined it. If anything, the places desiged with that in mind are horrible. No one wants to live there.

A better sweeping vision might be to find ways to let more kinds of people live in desirable, evolved cities. Halve the millionairs in SF or NYC (or London or Paris) and rent control the living space that's left.

"Time will tell".

Oh, how true. Atlantic Station/Midtown seems like the new Buckhead to me. Since Midtown is rapidly becoming the anti-Buckhead, I think Atlantic station will only add to its newfound luster. Once that wears off, I see the same problems facing Midtown that Buckhead is facing now. Unless, of course, the residents, business owners and council persons stay atop of Midtown's potential growth problems.

As far as mowing down the city: bring it on! I know many native "Atlantans" -- mostly those who grew up in neighboring counties -- who don't even think to venture downtown because they can't even navigate the city. Given Atlanta's horrendous infrastructure, it would be far, far cheaper to tear it all down and start anew than to attack the city's poor planning one project at a time. The aesthetic and practical benefits of doing so would only be icing on the cake.

My wife and I recently (8 mos ago) moved from Chicago to Dallas/Ft. Worth. I grew up in Dallas, my family is here, and there were a number of reasons that consituted the move.

Moving to Dallas because it was a better city than Chicago was NOT on the list of reasons.

I haven't spent a ton of time in Atlanta, but my wife grew up in Raleigh, NC, and spent much time there. From what I know, Atlanta and Dallas are very similar in a ton of ways. They are both large, southern hubs of business, and compared to other southern cities, you could say they're even cosmopolitan.

But never in a million years will they hold a candle to a Chicago, Boston, NYC, or San Fran.

Chicago has the most incredible grid and city core And every little neighboring community or township is built upon a small urban community perhaps a hundred years old. It's incredible.

Dallas and Atlanta are basically the same age as Chicago, but fall well behind in terms of city planning. Dallas has become the sprawl. And like Atlanta, is now realizing the same consequences. Until two years ago there was absolutely nothing to do in downtown Dallas. There still isn't much, but it is improving, thanks to developments similar to the Atalntic Station, such as Dallas' own Mockingbird Station. Similar names... Same development company perhaps?

That said, many of the smaller, smarter communities around Dallas/Ft. Worth are developing these same small New Urban communities. And despite the gripes that some make, they work.

My wife and I are currently building our new home in such a community. While slightly less urban than an Atlantic Station or Mockingbird Station, it's the same concept. I can walk to work, I can walk to a waterpark, I can walk to a hockey rink, hey--I can simply walk.

And I will not spend an hour and a half every single day stuck in traffic doing the Office Space thing.

Is it Chicago? No.

Is it improving the way I live here? Yes.

Now they just need to bulldoze Houston.

You can have the Atlantic Station. My money's on Smyrna. Make way for the S.M.Y.!

They're doing some smart things in Montreal, finally. They're demolishing the terrible 1962 cloverleaf interchange at Pine and Park to make way for a pedestrian-and-bike-friendly flat intersection, with the option of a tramway up Park avenue on the central median. The man in charge of the city's urban planning at the moment, Robert Libman, has visions of replacing hundreds of parking lots with urban infill in order to encourage public transit use and covering over some of the worst trench-cut expressways that cut like a deep scar through Old Montreal. But still, recently we had a spate of fake-bomb scares at condo construction sites. The perpetrator just turned himself in, but he had a manifesto decrying gentrification in favour of social housing - ignoring the fact that 62% of all the new construction in depressed neighborhoods *is* social housing...
BTW - anyone read the new Metropolis? That new student center at IIT in Chicago looks amazing, and an excellent use of "wasted" space around the elevated railway tracks.

When I read this post, the first thing I thought of was Mockingbird Station. As someone who has lived her entire life in a huge, soulless suburb near Dallas, I think these sort of planned neighbourhoods are great for sprawling, unplanned suburban cities, like Dallas (I don't think Dallas has any numbered streets, or anything even approaching a grid system) and Atlanta. God knows Dallas is impossible to navigate, even for people like my parents who've lived here for 20 years. As far as I know, Mockingbird station has been a success so far- hopefully Atlantic Station and other projects of this kind will also do well.

When I read your comments that Atlanta needed to be mowed down and essentially rebuilt, I immediately thought about the burning of Atlanta during the Civil War.

I'm far from an urban design historian/expert, but I would think that event alone played a role in how the city's infrastructure is today.

Granted, Atlanta has undergone plenty of change since 1864. But if the residents of that time rebuilt the city around the damage and not the (possibly original) grid design, I could understand why today's problems are surfacing.

I think it is reasonable to assume the heart of Atlanta did reflect a European grid design at one point. I believe many cities established prior to the Civil War do reflect this design. And size doesn't matter -- New York City (especially Manhattan) implements the design as does a place like Gainesville, Fla. (est. 1821).

As for "Atlantic Station" -- I recall studying an urban planning issue in a sociology class where cities with an urban sprawl design are trying to correct the situation by infusing old, grid-style designs.

Some new communities, such as Celebration, Fla. and Seaside, Fla. (where "The Truman Show" was flimed) are built on this principle. And for cities that can't be mowed down, development contractors attempt to add that old-town feeling through their shopping districts.

I suppose the construction of Atlantic Station only validates your argument that Atlanta is a victim of urban sprawl and needs rebuilding. :)

There's swelling support for the Atlanta beltline proposal (QT 6.3). It's a light rail that uses existing, though unused, rail tracks to connect intown communities. Trolleys and all.

I don't buy the "mow it down/let's make everything new urbanism" partyline. Atlanta's been doing that for the better part of the last century. It's a history machine, chruning, scraping and in-filling its way into a loss of place and identity. Don't like the old train depot? Mow it down! Not too keen on that 70's John Portman building? Mow it down.

baloney.

I went to the AtlanticStation.com site...it required flash and thought my browser didn't have it (it does.) I wrote a note to info@faucettnewmedia.com to complain about their poor coding and a misspelling in a link (they misspelled atlanticstation.com in a couple of mailto links)...well, the email bounced back. tried the phone number...disconnected. i guess the website developers went out of business?
That'll teach them to do a sloppy job.

I grew up all over the South and up & down the East Coast; I've seen my share of cities (of various sizes). I actually remember my first time driving in Raleigh I was freaked out because of all the exits and signs, etc. As I got older I found myself living in bigger cities, Wash DC, NYC, etc. It got easier and easier to acclimate.

(dramatic pause).

Then I moved to Brasil. First Rio de Janeiro, now São Paulo. Damn, nothing could prepare me for the complexities of city living here! Small road signs, complicated bus routes, a trillion dollar house next to a five dollar one, street names that closely resemble sentences (Rua Doutor Neto Arrajo de Souza), etc. In São Paulo, I think it's rare for a street to go straight for more than 5 blocks, it's very very difficult to navigate. Imagine an aerial view of a big bowl of spaghetti noodles...you are now looking at a street map of São Paulo. And on top of that, nobody (repeat, nobody) uses north, south, east, west when giving directions. I think it's safe to say that city planning basically doesn't exist here in these two cities, if it did, I'm sure everyone on the board of directors has a house outside of the city and a helicopter commute into work everyday, he he.

On the positive side, living here has made me smarter in many ways. It forces you to kick up your survival tactics a notch or twelve. When a city is planned out perfectly, a person gets a bit lazy with their thinking. I'm a big believer in balance, so I don't think I'd want to live in the "perfect" planned city, but damn, I don't want to live in a labyrinth as well!

Yeah Faucet new media is long gone. They had a kick ass office though...

In response to Andrew above and the others who mentioned that no great city was ever borne out of a "sweeping modern vision"... This is exactly what happend in NYC. Compare navigating the tangle of streets in downtown Manhattan to the grid above Houston St. That grid, along with Central Park, was planned long before the city had grown that far north. City planners literally drew the grid and the park on a huge map in the early 1800's, then proceeded to flatten the previously hilly terrain and lay down the streets in the grid that's there today.

Anyways, there are tons of webpages that talk about it. It's really intersting and maybe the best example of a really insightful urban plan.

I think the problem is that Atlanta have been "mowed down" continuously for Federal Buildings, Post Aparment Complexs, Jimmy Carter Expressways, Olympic Parks (sic), $300, 000 yuppie lofts crap aparments that will look worse than Technwood Homes (rip) 10 years from now. Midtown was WAY more livable in the 80s before all these gated aparment buildings went up. Now it looks like Cobb County and traffic sucks. So much for "mowing down" atlanta and starting over. And by the way, Atlanta sucks.

I want to see the downtown connector covered, much like the Big Dig in Boston...call it the Big Cover. Imagine walking from GT across 200 yards of grass and 3 homeless people to the Varsity.

Atlanta's own central park. I think that would help put Atlanta on the map, also because I think Atlanta lacks in park and rec space. Piedmont Park is too small for the number of people that are moving into the midtown area. Downtowners have what, centennial olympic...hold on while I get up off the floor from laughing so hard...

Exactly, Bruno. Here in Houston we have the same problem as in Atlanta. I haven't been there, but from everything I have read the two cities seem to be fairly analogous.

In striving to "improve" several downtown and neartown neighboorhods, we are hastily mowing down historical neighboorhods and replacing them with cookie cutter townhomes without consideration to the neighborhood's cultural value. Houston is always in such a hurry to remake itself that it never takes care to build upon what cultural capital it already has. As such, what we are left with is an amalgamation of characterless tract homes and slavish architectural knockoffs that do nothing to define or enhance the character of the city. Houston, for perhaps being the most international city in the South, feels completely generic.

I'm afraid that in ten years time what we will be left with is a new soulless city center that won't hold it's value and, once its novelty wears off, will lead to the same decline that left it empty the first time. Then we can tear that down and start again.

On the flip side, with the new rail service getting on its feet, and for the first time since the 50s the possibility of a decent range of afforadable in-town housing options, the possiblity for a neighborhood sans SUVs now actually exists. I'd even walk to the Starbucks.

"My hope is that this national trend by developers and cities to remake their downtowns and inner cities into suburbanite friendly meccas befits the current neighborhood dewellers and has a true socioeconomic impact for the community - not just the fly by night developers and city managers."

Interestingly, this is the situation in the Decatur area (20 mins outside of Atlanta where my wife and I recently purchased a renovated, turn of the century home). The city imposes the heftiest property taxes on those who have recently moved into the area, while the older residents -- ones that have lived there for many decades -- are not affected by the rising cost of living. In other words, while their property values may be going up (thanks to new developments and renovations) their taxes are remaining steady.

The goal is to keep the Decatur area -- like others have pointed out -- from becoming an intown Cobb County, and to facilitate the growth of a new community of mixed generations and races.

Interesting, although there are some exemptions and what not, I don't know of anything that is as inclusive in Houston.

Timely enough, I attented a the first in a series on Chicago architecture last night at the MFA here. As the subject turned to urban rennovation I asked the speaker, Blair Kamin, architecture critic for the Chicago Tribune, if he had any thoughts on the Atlantic Station project. To my suprise he hadn't heard of it. Oh well, just another opinion I guess.

In response to Jon, above: I understand what you're saying about the displacement of current residents, but that's a concern for cities in which the people acutally lived there (like LES in NYC). But in this particular case, NOBODY lived there: it was a polluted steel mill and is a great redevelopment.

Of course, Atlanta TOTALLY dropped the ball on the bridge. The city had the opportunity to have this crucial link designed by Santiago Calatrava, the foremost bridge architect in the world. The city could have had something that, when seen in photos, people would say "Ah, that's Atlanta." Think Sydney Opera House, Eiffel Tower, Big Ben/Parliament, Brooklyn Bridge type stuff. Unfortunately, it looks like Dallas is going to outclass us on this one.

Atlanta needs many more links over the Interstates. In fact, those crucial lifebloods of economy are exactly what destroy our cities "flow." If the city were to embrace it, like a river, we'd have some interesting results.

I've lived in Atlanta for a decade now, and I can attest that new urbanism and the influx of suburbanites has made this city a thousand times better. I can now walk to many of the things I need to do, and my office in Midtown now has actual people who aren't selling gay prostitution or crack rock living around it.

Sometimes, I miss the soul of down-trodden areas of the inner city: the burned-out buildings gracing DeKalbAvenue, the collapsing mills that are now lofts, but overall, I'll take usability over bombed-out craters any day.

Oh cool! You live in Decatur? I'm in East Lake, City of Atlanta just south of Oakhurst Village (I can moonwalk to the Universal Joint).

As a former Atlantan, yeah, I definitely got a kick out of Redden's comments. My wife and I spent two years in Sandy Springs, and we enjoyed it for the most part. However, we always talked about how we'd love to live in a "real city" as opposed to a tightly compacted collection of suburbs. If we were still there, we'd definitely be interested in Atlantic Station -- or Decatur, which we loved visiting.

Our current city of Chattanooga is undergoing something of an urban renewal. There are a lot of great things underway downtown, on the riverfront, and in the surrounding neighborhoods.

One city that recently impressed me was Cincinnati. I only spent one evening there, but I was really taken with how they seemed to have real neighborhoods where people lived, worked, shopped and dined, etc. The coolest part was that they didn't seem "planned" like Atlantic Station (A.S. being better than nothing, though).

"Dallas/NYC/Chicago/Salt Lake City/etc is so much better!" "Mow it down and start over." (Sherman lives!) To quote Lewis Grizzard, "Delta is ready when you are." Then maybe we can have our streets back....

Ironically the Atlanta's oft commented "lack of urban design" is exactly the opposite. Long ago the city of atlanta comprised of the downtown area from white wall street in the south and modern day international avenue to the north. The rest of modern day was privately owned land. Not plantations, but the vast estates and private commercial holdings of Atlanta's railroad and manufactuering magnates. One by one they became the over 200 neighborhoods that exist today. As each one was one was built trolley lines were laid and soon one could reach any point in the city by public transport. Then tragedy struck in the form of fire and motorized transportation. In 1917 a fire started in the slums of the cities fourth ward. The fire consumed nearly 1/4 of the city before it was stopped. This divided the city in a line down the middle and to the east. A few decades later refridgerated trucking made train freight nearly obsolete. Being that train lines made up the backbone of the city it was decided to run the new interstate highway directly through the city as upposed to skirting it so that new truck lines could delivery and ferry goods from atlanta's warehouses and factories as the trains had once done. Once completed the new highway effectly cut the city in two. This also allowed citizens to safe move from the inner city to newer suburbs in the old farm land surronding the metroplis. As this progressed demand for public transport dropped as well as patience for atlantas slow moving trolleys which clogged car traffic. Atlanta's transportation authority finally sealed the deal and cut all trolley system in favor of a new subway which followed the highway in the inner city as well as buses. Atlanta's neighborhoods have not changed since this has been done so intergrating the trolleys would be a snap and at last a real solution to the cities traffic woes.

As a native Atlantan and a person with a vested interest in Atlantic Station, I know it will be great for Atlanta. Why a bunch of carpet baggers would suggest to tear down the city and start over again is beyond me. I guess it would be the job of the tax payers to rebuild it so all you people can live in a town with a "grid system". Jeez, live alittle, there is more to life than two lefts and a right. Many of you people are taking yourselves way to seriously, lay off the lattes have a glass of sweet tea and relax. By the way I live in the 'burbs and would not live in town if I had to.

I have lived in Atlanta for 8 years and still get lost but that is the major quirk of this city. I do not think it is worth comparing Atlanta to NYC or Chicago. It needs to stand on its own. There is no need to tear down and start over, there is only the need to enhance what it is here and make it better. I must say that the new apartments going up that look like they were built from a box are awful. I live in Virginia Highlands and they are going up everywhere...that said, Atlanta is really a city that should not be written off!!! Not everyone wants to live in a 1900's building with all of its haunts and headaches (as I do!!!)

I think some of you are being alittle too snobbish with Atlanta and other growing cities. First of all, we can't go back and build old buildings at this point so we simply must accept the fact that these developments are new and lack the character that years of history bring. This is a welcome lurch in the right direction for Atlanta and many other positive improvements are happening around the city. For me the bottom line is that there needs to be a vision for what the citizens want the city to look like going forward and channell development to suit that vision.

There are many reasons why Atlanta is what it is today but I believe there is still hope of it being a great city even with crooked streets and new development.

Grid the piedmont?

http://www.glenwoodpark.com/
www.beltline.org

outside of fairley-poplar there may not be much hope for downtown.....but elsewhere in the city interesting things are popping up

...it all really boils down to this: as the cost of driving everywhere becomes economically unfeasible, will atlanta have the neccesarry alternatives (defined by transportation and land-use planning) in place, or will we ultimately die as a city and rapidly depopulate? hopefully the south will grow out of slow change....

...there may be hope for my crappy city yet....well there better be anyway, if im to find a fucking meaningful job upon graduation from the andrew young school o' policy studies at GSU

I grew up in a town with a grid system and can vouch for the convenience of it. As a frequent visitor to Atlanta, I always wondered what inspired the civil engineer who planned the streets. According to an article I read, the city was originally designed to resemble Paris-- the wheel and spoke street layout. Then later engineers filled in the gaps with a grid-based design, creating a big mess. I can't vouch for this, but if you look at a metro map, you can kind of make it out.

As for the new development, I suspect that Atlantic Station will create massive traffic problems on 75/85, but will be pleasant for the people who live there-- once they get home, anyway. As someone who now lives in Atlanta, if I could choose between the city sitting down and planning a phenomenal public transportation system-- more rail lines, bike lanes, etc-- or the city working with developers to plan more communities, I'd choose better public transportation any day. Developers will always build; all the city has to do is give them permits. And as for less confusing streets, forget it; too many people drive here anyway.