R.I.P. Netscape

I say good riddance to Netscape. Seriously, what has netscape done for anyone in the last 5 years? They can barely keep up with standards, let alone create a browser that doesn't crash all the time.

IE will eventually play by the standards rules, and then we'll all be better off.

Rather than try to put down Microsoft and IE so much, why not look forward to a day when we have a consistent, cross-platform web experience - regardless of who is behind it.

Think about it - who cares who makes the browser if the user experience is what's intended, consistent, and reliable. I don't.

I do see your point William - and yes, I can honestly say that web development would be a lot easier if everyone used the same software to display web content. But there are two ways to go about that - either allow one for-profit corporation to hold the keys (one that has employed many bait-and-swtich tactics over the years), or encourage all browser manufacturers (including Microsoft) to support a base of standards so all browsers render content exactly (or damn near close to) the same. For a healthier marketplace, and development environment, the latter is the right way to go.

But yes, I must admit - I've never liked Netscape either. That's why I use Safari. :)

I use Mozilla and it's infinite+1 times better than IE, so if the latest Netscape is anything like it, which I assume it is, then it dying because of IE is the greatest injustice in the history of computers. IE just plain sucks ass, it sucks big rich ass.

in addition, MS announced that IE 6 SP1 was the last standalone version of the browser. so, to get the next version one needs to upgrade the OS. wonderful.

Patrick, that is what is really scary. And total crap, they can upgrade the browser (fix CSS bugs, etc.) without a new operating system. My concern is that MS historically has only supported standards when it served their purpose. Justice is the advantage of the stronger, and standards are the advantage of those with less market share. There are millions of webpages that don't even come close to complying with standards, but who will put out a site that doesn't work in IE? (Besides mine ;)

That's what scares me too. MS seems to have already cut way back on their IE development efforts. If Mozilla scales back too it means that we've pretty much plateaued iin terms of browser technologies.

I don't agree with your statement that no one should be in charge of the internet, although it should definitely not be a profiteer. I think there would be less problems if there was a governing body making sure all browsers simply follow the standards. The internet should be more akin to a utility in this regard. There are plenty of other ways to make a browser have a competitive point of difference that doesn't place the burden squarely on web designers. Fortunately, we seem to be finally approaching that end and hopefully that will continue despite IE's only major competitor dying off.

I don't know how the "no more standalone IE upgrades" is going to fly. Does that mean no more Mac IE upgrades? Smells like another lawsuit to me.

>Rather than try to put down
>Microsoft and IE so much, why
>not look forward to a day when
>we have a consistent, cross-
>platform web experience -
>regardless of who is behind it.

I guess you mean "cross platform" as in "Windows ME, Xbox and PocketPC".

No Thanks.

Its a sad day for web development and democracy. If the Justice Department can't stop Micro$oft's run for totalitarian content control, who can. Users?

Just when things seem to be heading in the right direction Netscape and Microsoft have to mess everything up.

The internet does not equal television! The internet is just a network. The web is only 1 thing among many that people use the internet for.

The one thing that corporations/(some) content creators, marketing execs and lawyers don't seem to grasp is that the internet is designed around 2 important points:

1. The user is empowered
2. commonality is created through cooperation

"I can honestly say that web development would be a lot easier if everyone used the same software to display web content"

What the hell are you talking about? I want web enabled software everywhere. And I certainly don't want it bonded to an operating system. If I want web content on my fridge, I don't want to have to run an MS OS to do so. What about Phones, PDAs and all the other devices that are web-enabled?

"I think there would be less problems if there was a governing body making sure all browsers simply follow the standards. The internet should be more akin to a utility in this regard."

What is http://www.w3.org ? It already is a utility. There's are so many amazing uses for the Net (that aren't the web) it's incredible.

"There are plenty of other ways to make a browser have a competitive point of difference that doesn’t place the burden squarely on web designers."

Go back to print design.

" who cares who makes the browser if the user experience is what’s intended, consistent, and reliable"

Because it's now not just a browser, but shackled to an operating system. That's 2 choices killed for the price of one.

"what has netscape done for anyone in the last 5 years? "

Oh only completely changed the browser landscape and prooved that it wasn't proprietary features that people wanted but standards compliance. Perhaps you've forgotten about Mozilla? Netscape = Mozilla since version 6 and AOL has been aiding Mozilla development with funded staff.

>Go back to print design.
Intelligent repartee, Andrew. If you have to sink to insulting other people, you lose credibility. Go back to "Evil Empire Gaming" while the adults continue an insult-free intelligent discussion.

Well, if this means that AOL's support of the Mozilla project goes out the window, then I think Moz will lose a lot of credibility down the road if only due to the fact that it will only have the "geek" marketshare.

I, for one, like Mozilla but the whole built-into-the-OS-so-I'm-damn-fast IE browser is great. If we have Microsoft developing IE (no more standalone versions doesn't mean no more updates), and Apple developing Safari, we can have two potentially good browsers. Yes, both are run by the folks behind the OS, but that doesn't mean they have to suck.

The one thing I really do like about Mozilla browsers is that I need only test it on my machine and am (mostly) guaranteed that it will display fine on any other OS. So I guess I'd rather have a Win/IE + Mozilla as a web dever on Windows. On the other hand, if I were a Mac dever, I'd rather have Safari + Mozilla (but I suppose OSX users have the advantage of being able to simulate WinXP, making testing that much easier).

I hope I didn't wander too far off there. Cheers.

Lauri,
The point was (however poorly stated by me) that the web is about user-empoyerment not designer empowerment which you seem to subscribe to. This is a notion more suitable to print design.

I don't believe the burdon is placed on designers at all. My web browser allows me to see a webpage as _I_ would like to see it my forcing the font's and colours _I_ want to see. And if you think that all web users should be forced to see your website only as you allow them to see it, then you'd be happier doing something where the content creator is in control.

"Go back to “Evil Empire Gaming” while the adults continue an insult-free intelligent discussion"

I hope you're not resorting to the 'my website is better than yours' defense instead of stating your argument. Well, if you must resort to personal insults then, as I've heard it so eloquently put by the visitors to Evil Empire Gaming; "Sucks to be you". Nhaaaaaaa .

My apologies to you, Todd, for my taking Andrew's bait. I should have been more mature and we wouldn't have gone off track this way. In the future, I'll ignore any personal attacks.

What would be really great is if AOL/Time-Warner said thanks, but no thanks for the free license of IE and took all of the money from the settlement and invested into its Netscape/Mozilla efforts. Unless that was a part of the settlement, what better way to get back at Microsoft than to use 3/4 of a billion of their own money to finance a competing product.

I however, seriously doubt AOLTW is smart enough or non-money hungry enough to do such a smart thing. The corporation as a whole is like $20 billion in the red and needs every penny it can get. However I think they would save $1 billion annually by ending the practice of sending me 2 CDS A MONTH!

As a web dev myself, we all know that this is a crazy settlement as was stated. It's like being tried for attempted murder and getting off by the defendant giving the plantif a "cyinyde pill" as a token of their good will... ugh. I was really hoping that AOHELL would mass inject into the internet newbies a good browser that challenged the landscape and brought back the "browser wars" at least in the form of "minority vs. IE" if not Mozilla vs. IE.... But that's not going to happen, or will it? Did AOL *ask* for the royalty free IE? And what'll happen after 7 years? Will M$ ask AOL for 5000 billion for a week of use and kill AOL as well? Reguardless I'm not going to give up my dilligence in making sure that sites I develop are compatible with IE, Mozilla, Safari, Opera, and others... Being lazy and not working on this would be like helping IE and M$ take over the web... I encourage all other developers out there to do the same too. M$ has no interest in competition on the grounds of a better product and standards compliance, they just brute force out any competitors and make everything propriatary so no one else can compete against them. We all know this from their actions in the past and with this AOL settlement as well. Developers shouldn't give up the fight... I know I never will. You will be rewarded for your dilligence

We have to realize that many users don't care or know about upgrading their browser and E-mail programs. As well, many of these people are using dial-up, over which a new browser can take hours to download. These users usually aren't comfortable with online shopping either (partly because their browser is so old) so they won't buy a browser on CD. So, many of these users are still using Netscape or Internet Explorer 4.x, since that's what came with their ISP or their computer. Their stance usually is, "Why spend money or lose my phone for hours, then spend more time trying to something to work, when what I've got works?"
As a result, we need to make it easy for users to install new browsers (say, use an installer by default under Windows and have it configure the plugins correctly, perhaps including Flash with the download), but we also need to get the browsers out there; this could be a great time to do that, with Internet Explorer basically being discontinued, even though many aren't aware of that yet. This would obviously include getting ISPs to distribute newer browsers (there's still lots out there that still distribute Netscape 4.x), and also do what AOL has done for ages; send CDs out with magazines and newspapers, and in the mail. Preferably, such a CD would also come with a brochure showing the user why they should use this browser over their current one. I'm sure that a well-coordinated volunteer effort (in which somebody signs up for an area, they get the CDs, they distribute them) could pull this off fairly easily.

This will, long term, be a further punch in the throat for all the other browsers out there--Safari, Mozilla, Opera, et al. If the new MS Longshithorn takes over the corporate marketplace with their wonderful financial 'deals', it will only be a matter of time before their standard Windows updates and Service Packs begin to slowly make compatibility more and more of a problem for the other browsers. It will only be a matter of time until all the other browsers fall by the fringe wayside and have as little relevance for web application developers as the really obscure browsers like Konquerer (for Linux) do. M$ getting AOL to force their shit down the throats of 30,000,000 million users is just the icing on the cake...

Big brother, a mammoth corportation, or uber-standards controlling my browser matters not. I just want my PNG support!

Big brother, a mammoth corportation, or uber-standards controlling my browser matters not. I just want my PNG support!

Amen brother.

I honestly don't understand the attitude of the people who just want to assimilate - the web is moving forward and IE is not. I'm not sure that the w3c is the perfect governing board for web standards ( I'd like to see some designers on board - how cool would text spanning multiple divs be, for instance ) but it seems to me that Microsoft does not have the will to develop web standards, even if we give them the power.

Standards are good - an outside board governing them is better - you can argue that 95% of the web uses IE, but that leaves 5%, which is a lot of eyeballs.

A bit early to worry about that.

I bet M$ is reading this and all the other posts like it on the web and laughing like a maniac... M$ needs to be beat down. vigilence on the part of developers and guiding end users both need to be worked on.... AOL default installed browser is just a watershed for capturing end (newbie) users to go with an non IE browser. The same thing can be done ( although takes more work ... ) with helping your friends and relatives download and work with better browsers. laziness will not take us anywhere except under the propriatary control of M$. Fight now, while there is still time...

Just thinking...

What would happen if a bunch of websites decided to drop ie/win support? What if a bunch of websites used alpha-transparent pngs without the tricks to make it work on ie/win? What if a bunch of websites did cool css effects that work on css compatible browsers except on ie/win?

Would the ie/win team listen?
Would the designers go along with that?

Just a thought.

but still no signs of any weapons of mass destruction except for all the DU bullets we left in IRAQ.
Down with Bush, the traitor, he should be tried for war crimes!

if netscape finally dies then this is a good thing

its slow
its clunky

it would be a lot easier to code for just the one browser than having to code for 4 or more (ns 4 pc+mac/ns6pc+mac/ie5pc+mac/other misc browsers)

I think we are all somewhat spoiled on the fact that most web browsers are free. I honestly think that web browsers should grow up into a pay-for software package. Hell, we all pay $700 a piece for most of our development/design software, what's another - say - $30 for the browsers.

Another thing. I don't believe I've ever witnessed a web browser commercial on TV, but I could be wrong. I hear people saying that the average user "just won't upgrade" because they are complacent, but nobody is putting any ads out there that inform or encourage switching or upgrading. If we look to the success of Apple's "Switch" campaign I believe that we can see that it would be successful because switching or upgrading browsers is not like switching computer systems.

Concluding... I believe that we could see the browser situation improve greatly if companies stop producing free browsers, and simply use mainstream advertising to keep consumers in-the-know about why they need to upgrade/switch. Nobody is communicating with the consumers. Redmond owns the PC-OS market, there's no doubt about that. But I see no real reason why other browsers can't be successful if the they communicate with the consumer.

What just occured to me is that the Internet, and more specifically the Web, is the main reason most of the breathing world owns computers today anyway. I'm truly shocked that the web browser market hasn't been more prolific. It almost doesn't make sense...

Does anyone have any feedback on this for me?

good article to read reguading this issue...

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9802

good article to read reguading this issue...

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9802

"What would happen if a bunch of websites decided to drop ie/win support? What if a bunch of websites used alpha-transparent pngs without the tricks to make it work on ie/win? What if a bunch of websites did cool css effects that work on css compatible browsers except on ie/win?"

What would happen? The website designers who did this would be fired. Sure all the non-profit blog sites, etc, could do this, but would MS care? NOPE. Would buisness sites do this? NOPE. What would they want to alienate any customers?

"Although this is off topic, I will answer briefly: Legacy OSes have reached their zenith with the addition of IE 6 SP1. Further improvements to IE will require enhancements to the underlying OS."

That quote from MS is scary. Fixing CSS bugs and adding PNG support won't be fixed? Huh? Sure maybe adding features like tabbed browsing won't, but does this mean, THAT'S ALL FOLKS with IE6. What you see is what you get?

I dont see why all of you are mad at Microsoft? Yeah they came out with a bargain at the end but isnt it AOL that really should shoulder the blame? Its AOL that has chosen IE instead of the in house Mozilla/Netscape. AOL is the one who finally made the decision.
If AOL would rather push IE and MSN instead of its own resources, AOL is to be blamed and not Microsoft.
Of course AOL's present financial condition and Microsoft's $750 million played a role but it was AOL's decision nevertheless.
And the Microsoft screwed Netscape deal is getting old too. That was ages ago. Mozilla rose from the ashes like a Phoenix. Right now AOL is killing a revitalized and resurrected Mozilla/Netscape and not Microsoft. Microsoft may have been at fault before but they shouldn't be blamed for the demise of Mozilla at the hands of AOL.

here, here Sunny. Well said.

Just for the record, it's commonly assuming that AOL paid Microsoft for IE the first time around, but the reality is the opposite: Microsoft paid AOL to distribute IE (in whatever version of AOL that was - 5?) ... This came out in the original anti-trust case.

Sunny:

Yeah, but still. (pouts)

I don't think the reason people are mad at M$ is so simple. AOL decided to screw themselves yes, because they are hurting as an ISP business, and can't hold out long against the money pockets M$ and they just need some quick cash to move on and try to rescue themselves as an ISP.... They settled for a short term fix which will come back and bite them in the long term... but they are in dire situation now so they took the raw deal... they are agreeing to giveup to M$ (in many different ways... ) cause it will help them in the short term.

why everyone is mad at M$ ( IMHO ) is cause they can bully people out of the market and force propriatarty poop onto people in a medium "for the people" supposedly but corporate interests are taking over. and they want everyone to sign up for MSN or get longhorn just to keep up. they are so powerful that they can fight AOL with one hand tied behind their back and make them accept a raw deal which will eventuall mean their demise. but more so that M$ bascally, takes over anything it wants and makes it incompatible with good standards that were ment to keep the web free and accessable to all... and once they take it over they put IE only on their OS and their ISP service. not my idea of innovation. they should fight a fair fight if they want to compete in the market for software or internet technologies... they should support standards and do it better than anyone else out there instead of trying to take over the technology and make it not work with any other competitor.... that's why people are mad at M$ not just this settlement but their business ethic and method of working with tech companies and providers.

I think everybody feels that its the standards that are not being adhered to by Microsoft. Microsofts lackdaisal approach to standards seems to be the matter that everyone is mad at. Obviously this is a troubling issue.
So the question is "how can we make Microsoft follow the standards?"
First we need to make the standards body more stronger and give them some power. Pretty much they are toothless as they cannot enforce their recommendations (the United Nations comes to mind). I think they should be given the power to actively push the implementation of standards. Kind of like a approval system. How abt W3C approved browsers?? Ofcourse this does nothing to the immense use of IE and most sites will still cater to the browser with most eyeballs, but it is a start.
Second of all we need to push a public campaign of sorts such as the recent push for png support in IE. I think something like can have a tremendous impact.

Well these are my ideas. what are your observations?

As the FCC moves to allow the consolidation of American media, the AOL versus Microsoft “settlement” effectively gives Bill Gates control of the internet. The so-called “settlement” means that AOL will be tied to the Microsoft browser while its own Netscape browser withers away. Meanwhile Microsoft has announced that its future browser upgrades will be tied to the purchase of Microsoft operating systems and/or its MSN internet service.

Run some math: Figure one billion first- and second-world people use at least $100 per year worth of Microsoft technology. Or that 20 million households fork over $50 per month (a proven price point – about the same as cable TV) for an MSN suite of internet access and online software apps. Or that 100,000 top companies spend $10,000 per month on Microsoft services. It’s easily a two hundred billion dollar per year business. It’s more likely that it could be a trillion dollar per year business.

In fact, I don’t think you would be considered paranoid to think that Microsoft engineered the dot.bomb crash and our resultant recession just so it could consolidate the internet business.

On a minor side note, Apple continues to provide free R&D and market research through its successful ramp up of iTunes.

Zeldman's new book – Designing with Web Standards – doesn’t matter anymore. Microsoft will be making the standards.

This is bullshit. i have been a practical, conforming IE using bastard for way too long.

why not coordinate a shut down of all the sites we can for a few days in protest of this travesty of justice? someone start a site, pick a date and contact the media.

at the very least i am switching to mozilla for PC and safari for mac.

chris, there is no market for web browsers, as there is no profit margin there. all browsers are free, so who would want to buy one?

oh and one more thing...
pretty timely release for safari wouldnt you say?

you know apple had to be expecting this, and they gotta be making plans for microsoft to withdraw office for mac, in a bid to shut apple down for good. sort of like a contingency if the russians push the button.

If Microsoft would incorporate pop-up blocking and full compliance with the W3C, I wouldn't mind using it over Mozilla. The whole browser war is in my opinion stupid. I use whatever browser works the best and right now that browser is Mozilla.

What I don't approve of is Microsoft paying off AOL Time Warner to license a second-rate browser into AOL when they are sitting on Mozilla, a great free browser. Microsoft should work with the W3C and get their standards compliance together and then I think a lot of web designers would be singing a different tune. At least I would.

Until then, Mozilla is the browser to design for.

well, I guess when you really get down to it, who has the power? THE END USER. M$ wouldn't be anything without the END USER. But the problem is what percentage of the end user even care about this settlement? 2-5% maybe? as developers we all *should* care but even some developers don't, a shame...

How many of your computer newbie friends would even know there is an Alternative to IE? maybe 40%? This is why education needs to take place... All the W3C approved browsers in the world won't make a difference in the bottom line, the critical mass doesn't even know what the W3C is.... Thus, adoption by end users (wouldn't AOL have been convenient?) is what needs to take place. What gives M$ it's gall to go around coding propriatary poop and breaking standards in their browser? MARKET SHARE. and why do some lazy web developers not care about any other browser besides IE? MARKET SHARE. Thus, to make a real change we need to move from the ground up. Get end users browsing on alternative (better) browsers and then even the lazy web developers will start supporting it (too bad it has to come to this). Once that happens then we can start getting things moving...

Corporations are Corporations, and governments are governments. Corps can do whatever they want in developing their software so petitions etc. to make them support Full PNG is like asking your mom for a new car. It's up to them, no power in your part except asking... What needs to happen is people need to be flexible and start using better browsers, there is a choice, exercise it. Use what's best and convince others to as well... Otherwise we'll all be using IE forever. I'm not saying IE is bad, I'm saying total dominace in MARKET SHARE gives M$ the power over the internet community that it should not have. With that power they can do many terrible things. The internet needs to be free not under control by any one entity.... and you know it.

It's sad that an industry that promises so much innovation and idealism (the entire computer industry) has to become so stale and passionless.