Why Does IE 5 Survive?

I don't know why any PC user would avoid upgrading to Internet Explorer 6, and I honestly didn't think that was going on. In fact, my statistics show quite the opposite view--most of the PC users visiting are using IE6.

Downloading a new version of Internet Explorer is a pretty hefty download if I remember right. People stuck on dial-up might not want to spend the hours downloading it when they feel that IE5 works just fine for them. Another thing is that as long as websites keep spending countless hours with clever hacks making sure they work in broken browsers, these people won’t see a reason to upgrade.

I think it’s the same people that run 800x600 and Windows 98. If I’m not mistaken, ‘Automatic Update Notification’ isn’t installed (or turned on) by default in Win 98 installations. I don’t hold it against them, but they simply don’t know any better. When I do tech support I tell people it’s wise to upgrade to IE 6 to “properly display newfangled web pages.” But I say it nicely.

Have you tried checking the OS version of people with IE 5/5.5? I have a Window's '98 box with IE 5.5 and I never get a message asking me to update. It might be only 2000/XP that forces update screens on you.

As for my own personal "why", IE 6 runs slower than IE 5.5 on my '98 box, and doesn't give me anything tangible (because everyone builds around IE 5+, even when they're aiming for standards)

Statistics on my site also show a great concentration amongst the IE5/5.5 area. And I agree that it is quite a hefty download even with a broadband connection and that might be part of it. I’m a Windows user and a IE loyalist and I was guilty of resisting the upgrade but it was mostly because of pure laziness. I think a lot of people aren’t aware of the differences in page rendering between versions. If IE5 displays their page alright, then they don’t see any reason for IE6. Microsoft likes to throw in features and bunch of bells and whistles but I don’t think that’s enough to entice people to download. And the other reason that could be helping the lack of IE6 converts is that the push for the upgrade isn’t very big. If you have IE5, Microsoft doesn’t send out notices that says ‘We think you should upgrade’ - it’s up to the user to do that, and if you’re not up with the tech news then a lot of people may miss it and then only upgrade when they get to a favorite page that says "For IE6 Only."

Consider also people who are visiting your site from computers where they have no authorization to download and install software--i.e., public libraries, net cafés, educational institutions, some workplaces. That is probably the most sane explanation for why anyone on earth still uses Netscape Navigator 4.x.

Also, slightly off-topic (but it IS about IE6)...the form fields and author names on the comments pages here seem wonky (I’m using IE6 on a Win2K machine). It could be because I resized the window, then sized it down again...the form fields now break the dashed border on the right side of the middle white column, amongst other things. I can take screencaps if you’d like.

Oh yeah, and Todd...your design here looks maddeningly familiar! Have you designed any other blogs, or could you tell me where you got the inspiration for this design? I’m searching through my Favorites like mad trying to find the site this reminds me of...

*cringes* ...so I scroll down the front page and read that everyone's already reported all the bugs I'm experiencing. Apologies!

When you figure this one out, call me and we can figure out why 40% of the hits to the Wisconsin Department of Transportation's web site are seen with Netscape 4.x?!?!?!?! I'd really like to fine out.

Personally, I think we (web designers/developers) should set up a charitable program by which we send on CD (for the many with wretched dial-up access) two or three browser options of the newest generation. The costs would mostly be in mail charges, but with a small amount of cash and a good PR person, we could get everyone up to IE^, K-MEleon, Netscape7, Opera, or whatever they want in a hurry.

Who's with me!!!!

What I want to know is where is IE7. Maybe I ask too much but AFAIK IE6 was released in Aug. of 2001. I have yet to see or hear of any proposed release date of IE7. Will we wait for two years before we can get another browser from Microsoft.

Many people simply don't bother. I'm keen to install all upgrades available on my PowerMac, but when it comes to my notebook, which is running on Windows 2000 Professional, frankly speaking I don't give a damn!

Personally I held onto IE 5.5 until only a few months ago. When IE 6 came out I saw some benchmarks that said it was slower than 5.5 and I found the toolbar icons gaudy and childish. So I stuck with 5.5. Until just recently on MS update 6 was only considered a recommended update and not a critical one. I finally made the switch when I installed XP. It's good, but as a user I don't see any difference from 5.5.

My dad still uses IE 5.5 and Windows 98. His take on it is he doesn't want the latest and the greatest, he just wants something that works consistently. (kind of ironic considering he runs 98) Installing anything new to him means the possibility of something going wrong, and he knows he more than likely won't be able to fix it. If it ain't broke don't fix it, I guess.

At I can’t understand either why they like IE 5.5. It comes with a lot of bugs (try to install Flash Player 6 when you got Flash 5). Tha fact is that any swf you have created that reliase in an Flash-Javascript communication won’t work !! If you don’t belive me, try opening a pop-up from Flash, IE 5.5 won’t let you!! I know is Explorer bug cause it work with IE 4, 5, 6 and N6, 7.
Other thing I can’t understand is how a big company like Telefonica is using Netscape 4.5 as it corporative browser!!! I can believe it!! It’s from the Flinstones age.... Well that’s my view 8)

To ordinary users, there is no difference between the two. It's only us developers who see the difference, because it doubles the amount of time it takes to do anything in HTML or JS (which is why I am a Flasher).

I still hold on to IE5.5 because I can only have one version installed and I need to test my sites in something other than the latest. If it works well in IE5.5, then it will work in IE6.

BTW I notice you fixed the floating div issue, a week or so ago - it used to float over the text, so I couldn't read the first line.

well, one has to ween oneself of microsoft at some point.......

Darrell is closest to correct, as far as my experience as a former Windows Tech Support Monkey will testify.

One, on a 56k connection it takes forever to download. Then, if anything goes wrong with the transfer, or during the setup, during which you must also continually download files, you risk literally crippling your computer. Something gets muffed in the installation process, and suddenly you've muffed the shell. The sheer amount of bizarre things that a faulty installation of IE can cause is terrifying.

Also, the current push with MS is of course MSN, even though they are technically two entirely separate entities. Alot of people who are using MSN only have two options, go with their old version of MSN, and, by corrolary,IE5, or upgrade to the new MSN software and get the gaudy, jelly filled, bulky and over all hideous monstrosity that *is* the MSN Explorer software, which is, gasp, built on IE6.

Also, all kinds of problems with AOL 4-6 ad IE6 if my memory serves me and theres your 50 percent of suburbia, and 98% of the boonies.

Further more, when most people find out that when you download IE6 you also get a new version of ie you also get a new version of Outlook, and violent fear of losing all their email sets in, a fear which is largely founded in fact.

And like others have already stated, there really is no tangible, bald faced reward for upgrading to the typical end user.

Most reasons have been covered. Is there a huge tangible difference between IE 5.5 and 6? No -but I feel there is a subtle difference, and my preference leans to 6 because of "that" subtlety. It just seems a touch smoother. Not sure what to attribute it to.

As to why IE 5 clings... a)laziness b)people don't know about the new browsers or c) don't care. "If it works then why bother" seems to be the common motto. I'm shocked by how many people are unaware of the possibilty to upgrade.

As per 4.x - some of that may be due to the fact that it is supposedly one of the most secure browsers, and if you work for someone like Sun Microsystems, you ain't supposed to use the competition,,, and -depending on who you talk to - the 6.x and 7.0 Browsers aren't approved for security on a global level -although i think that's cmplete bunk.

Then there was the guy using IE 4... who was like yer site don't work dude... What? the browsers up to 6? Oh shoot.

It only proves the fact that every other microsoft user is a complete and utter moron.
Go mozilla go!

For me, it is neither a download issue (I must have a dozen copies of IE 6 on various CD-ROMs), nor something like ignorance or laziness.

I have eight browsers on my computer (used mostly for testing) and IE 5.5 remains my very favorite. When you have such a good match you think twice before you let it go. Small details that make one version so successful sometimes get lost in upgrades.

So the main reason is that there’s no remarkable promise from IE 6. Why bother? It’ll probably run a bit slower on my computer and the new code is full of security holes (at least a couple of new bugs are announced every month on Microsoft’s security alert list). What’s wrong with 5.5? Broken CSS box model? The IE 6 bug that cuts off pages sounds a lot more serious.

By the way, automatic upgrade notifications can be turned off quite easily.

I'm a hobbist web designer who knows HTML, CSS, and JavaScript so I'm pretty much up on this stuff.

I use IE5.5 and would consider upgrading except for one thing. I can't get cable or DSL and have moved from a location where I had a really good dial-up connection to a location where I usually get a connection of 26,400. :-( If I'm lucky I get 28,000. As bad as it was upgrading IE at 52,000 I don't even want to think about it at the speeds I get now.

I notice from the sever logs on one site that I manage that there are a few regular visitors using Netscape 3, and one using Netscape 2 if you can believe that! I guess some people stick with what works for them for as long as they can.

Yeah, for me it’s the download time--it’s a lucky day when I hit 50 kbps at home--but I never open IE unless a site breaks in every other browser I have (five on the PC, at last count). Also, even though I always do a “custom” install and turn off as much crap as I can, every time I upgrade IE or Netscape I end up with all kinds of settings being changed, preferences being lost, stupid icons on my desktop and in the system tray, . . . It’s a nuisance to have to undo all that stuff over and over.

And then there’s what Nightcrawler says: the user experience on my old PC is already so lousy that upgrading a browser is not going to help. On my Powerbook, though, oh yeah! At least once a week I spend a couple of hours downloading upgrades and new programs that I want to try out. Usually I take it with me to an office where I can get DSL, but sometimes I’ll even pull down big files from home, over the modem: it’s that worth it.

My excuses are not representative, though. Most of my PC-using friends never think to upgrade their browsers until I mock them for running something ancient. Then they download a newer version, choose the “typical” installation, and then blame me for their computers' being all screwed up. They never read readmes; they never so much as glance at their application preferences. They don’t know how to turn off Clippy, either.

My friend John, who until a few weeks ago was running Netscape 4.61, looked at me like I was insane when I suggested that he upgrade. And he looked at me like I might actually be dangerous when I pointed out that his browser was five years old and three version points behind. “Why does it matter?” he wanted to know. Well, because, like, Argggh! The web has changed a little bit in those five years, and some of those changes are for the better. People who don’t make sites don’t get that, though; they just think the web has gotten a little bigger.

I see your new note to users of outdated browsers. I understand and agree with the sentiment. But I'm using IE 5.1 for Mac on an OS9 system -- and your site looks great. As much as I'd love to upgrade my browser further, that would mean, let's see: $129 for OSX and then a couple thousand for a new laptop that can handle the new operating system properly. I'm shooting for next summer. I hate to think I'll have to see that ugly text at the top of the page (ruining your beautiful design) until then.

The site renders just fine on IE 5.1 Mac, for the reason that v.5 Mac and v.5 Windows and wholly different beasts. 5 Mac is, standards-support-wise, an excellent browser; 5 Win is much more poor.

If by "ugly text" you're referring to the browser upgrade notice on the top of the page, I'm baffled - you shouldn't be seeing it in 5.1 Mac, either from a theoretical standpoint (IE5/Mac supports "display:none" just fine) or from a practical one (I don't see it on that exact same browser/platform).

Well fortunately I don't think this is the general trend throughout the net. Google's Zeitgeist seems to show IE6 growing fast, though it would look different if they combined 5 and 5.5 like you do. I think their traffic is pretty representative of the net as a whole though.

Parts of my site deliberately looks funny in IE5.5 because every other week or so I get a message from someone saying they think something is wrong, and then I can give the wonderful response of IE5's incomplete standards support and so far every one I've talked to has upgraded. I think of it like a public service.

I think sending CDs out is a great idea. Currently MS charges $5 plus tax to do this, with the $5 presumably being for shipping. If you really want to have some fun check out the IEAK which allows you to customize some neat things on the browser. I got it at first just to change some things on my own browser and have a CD I could drop in a client's computer to get them up-to-date.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet...

Before I got involved in caring about web standards, I didn't like IE 6 because it was 'fruity' (a better term might be 'Fischer Price'). I ran (and still do) Win2k and the addition of the new IE icon and favorites 'star' (and anything else I'm forgetting) turned me off. Yeah, I know it's a lame reason, but at the time I didn't know any better about the standards support and what-not. IE6 just seemed like a way to make my browser more childish looking.

Well since then I've learned a thing or two, so I gladly have IE6 (but use Mozilla) rather than IE5/5.5. To repeat everyone else, Joe User doesn't know the benefits and isn't curious enough to find out what improvements are in it for him.

Ancient computers tend to not run the latest software very well. I own 4 computers, the newest of which is 7 years old. I usually browse with lynx (even on my windows box), but keep a copy of Netscape 4 on the machine in case I *have* to go graphical. Anything newer than that takes too long to load.

Well, I would be one of the mindless cretins still running W2K/IE5.5. I'm a programmer by day, web hobbyist by night and spend a lot of time perusing zeldman.com and alistapart.com in addition to various other web development blogs. Especially in the area of CSS standards compliance, I've know for quite some time that IE6 was supposed to be a big step up from IE5.5. But, even at work with a high-speed connection, the download was taking too long. Just thinking about installing something that takes that long just to download makes me nervous. I love W2K (vs. Win98) but it already runs slower than I would like. Adding more bloatware from Microsoft doesn't seem very appealing.

Incidentally, I never get upgrade requests on W2K/IE5.5.

I double checked older versions of IE on the Mac, including 5.0, 4.5 and 4.01 for Mac OS 9, and the "standards alert" only appears (as it should) in the 4's. 5.0 ignores the notice.

Love the site, let me tell you.
BUT...
I can get my win2K work box with IE5 to crash consistently by hitting your site, adjusting text size and then trying to scroll the window!?!?
I think you are on to something here. You can specifically crash IE5. This is a new generation hacker weapon.
Fortunately at home on a Mac it looks cool. I was, however, inspired by your posts to download Mozilla to see if it is any good. I found huge perfomance issues...SLOW.
I want the old WDIK experience sans crashes and jumpy text. What should I do?

I think one of the major reasons why IE 5 (or 5.5) keeps showing up in your stats and other people's stats is because possibly (like me) a lot of internet surfers are your regular high school, university or college student who is forced to rely on the sometimes outdated software that the school has.

Like right now. We're on IE 5.5. Every single computer in the entire campus is 5.5 We have no choice. The tech person is either too lazy or thinks it's too inconsequential to upgrade right away... so we struggle. And for some reason, they also insist on keeping the screen resolution a ridiculous 640x480. There is no way to override this, really, because of the security features on the computers.

I think campuses should be forced to update their software regularly, especially if it's free.

In a small design office, I have to maintain (we don’t have any tech support beyond ‘well, I really broke it now, time to call in the professionals’) 4 PCs and two laptops, running various states of Me 98, and one XP box. I have a Me box and 98SE laptop at home. I dream of having consistent software profiles and a carefully staged upgrade path. But the number of machines I deal with and my experience to date means that I am not speaking out of ignorance when I say any major upgrade to an MS OS with the usual range of existing software is a real roll of the dice. And not knowing when I can steal anywhere from 2 hours to two days (once I have to rebuild a machine because of a single font installation issue; granted, my workaround was drastic, but it was under deadline, and I was desperate) to troubleshoot the outcome is a bother I don’t have time for. And IE is an OS upgrade, no matter how you slice it. Sure, I should have leaned to configure NT boxes when I was learning Quark, but I foolishly thought the software companies were working to make my day easier, not harder. Consequently, we upgrade Adobe 2-3 months after release, Macromedia when features change enough to leave us behind in terms of our services, and OSes when we buy a new machine. A day of my billable time cause an IE upgrade chunked a box? Throw it out. Except this is no longer the market where such cavalier attitudes are plausible.

there’s not a thing i could hope to add to this thread of conversation here, but i couldnt help but put in my $0.02 USD worth :)

tho i’ve only seen OS X from a distance, i still luv visiting yer site and think it’s great - kewl site and a great read (which is why i find myself coming back here all the time... heh) anywho, just wanted to say congrats on fixing the “shift” in the upper toolbar area with the CSS mouseovers - what was it, if i might ask? *curiuos* was it the margin’s in your CSS class’s? also, i really liked the “wide layout/version” you posted as an example in an earlier blog post... have u received any requests to add that as a toolbar option?

k, better get back to work... i guess. *lol* again, awesome job on the CSS Overhaul, tom!

I use Mozilla 1.1 in Debian Sid, but due to evil browser detection monsters on things like my bank’s online banking page, I have been forced to place user_pref("general.useragent.override", “Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98);”); into my ~/.mozilla/*/*/user.js file to lie. Simple enough.

Also, people fear upgrades and are frozen in their tracks on such things. The ‘average joe user’ type people will be intimidated by an upgrade notice and ignore it, hoping it will eventually go away or even just cose the program from that point. A friend of mine started the upgrade process at my request once, but being on dialup gave up and decided to live with what he had (no noticable differences to him).

I test my sites and projects in my three VirtualPC setups, and I can see all of the problems you list, and can't see why anyone would stick with the same old browser. Maybe they're corporate users.... But in my stats at work I can see a slow dip of IE5 visitors.

I haven't upgraded because it's not on an ISP installation disk yet. The download is ridiculous, and I'm not really that interested since 5.5 works fine. My standard upgrade path is to check in with my local office supply store and pick up one of those disks to sign up for an ISP. The latest version of IE is usually on it. That's when I upgrade. I will never upgrade anything from a download unless I can download the entire installation as a free-standing executible. I'm not about to go through the download process more than once. I want the installation disk or I'm not interested.

By the way: Not true that Windows users can't avoid requests to upgrade. I'm running Windows 2000 Pro, and I've never been prompted to upgrade IE. All you need to do is turn it off in the preferences.

Well, outside the developer community, why should Joe Soap give two hoots about various javascript / css issues? They've bought their PC, probably got windows and therefore IE installed. It works and will do them. And why not?

Frankly, comments about people being 'lazy' because they don't especially want to tamper with what is, to them deeply alien stuff, is typical of the cliquey male elitism that abounds in development circles.

My Dad doesn't even know the difference between Windows, the Internet, and an application. What shall we do? Round him up and shoot him? Tell him to upgrade his browser because newer versions have better support for CSS2 positioning? Do you think he'll understand? Or care?

And that's why IE 5 will linger on until everyone upgrades to a newer version of Windows and gets 6. That's life!

The practical differences between Win IE 5, 5.5, and 6 will be difficult to really account for (for the purposes of web development discussion around CSS/XHTML), because they all support @import of stylesheets. As long as they do, they will get the CSS 2 stylesheets that are meant for standards-compliant browsers. Unfortuanately, they all have annoying differences in the way they render CSS layouts--making our job hard (but not as hard as it used to be).

I can’t tell you the relief and excitement that the whole standards movement has given me as a multimedia developer--I actually look forward to web projects now!

A follow-up to an offline discussion I had with Adi:

Read this great artlcle on X-platform, X-browser testing.

And, you can download those nasty older browsers for testing from a link in the article.*

Enjoy! Basically, I'm going to push any new clients to web standards-compliant code, so all I really care about is
1. how it degrades in non-compliant brrowsers (as opposed to testing every little old browser)
2. That the code performs properly in compliant browsers (especially IE 5+, because that's what most ppl have).

*I tried to post the link but the link would not accept a closing tag--long URLs seem to give the MT backend a problem. Weird! Just read the article, you'll see it.

Correction/Update:

get any browser archived here:
http://browsers.evolt.org

Correction/Update:

get any browser archived here:
http://browsers.evolt.org

whoever writes this shit is a fuckin loser. I have never read anything as dumb as this shit especially the MTV article. Go fuck yourself hard you lil peice of shit

Geesh, bunch of comments on this subject already hey? Folks working in the web field get very worked up on browser versions - me just the same :)

My opinion would be to upgrade to IE6 for the simple reason of security, if nothing else! IE5+ is so full of holes by now that the security update downloads will tele up to easily as much as a IE6 upgrade. I know there are fixes on 6+ as well, but hell at least my privacy and puter is sorta more safe?

There are a couple of relevent issues here. First, IE6 isn't even available yet for the Mac. Mac users (which I am not) have to use IE 5.x. Also, there are still a significant portion of users who have mid 90s computers with Windows 95 installed where the user never upgraded to Windows 98. In this case, IE 5.5 is the HIGHEST IE version which retains compatibility with Windows 95. Therefore, IE users on a Mac and IE users on Windows 95 are stuck with IE 5.x and CANNOT make the upgrade to IE6. The Mac side will probably change in the future, though.